The Tech Humanist Show: Episode 18 – Cathy Hackl

About this episode’s guest:

Futurist, speaker, and author Cathy Hackl is a globally recognized augmented reality, virtual reality and spatial computing thought leader. She’s been named one of the top 10 Tech Voices on Linkedin for two years in a row, the highest honor on the platform. She currently works as part of the Enterprise team at one of the industry’s top OEMs.

Prior to that, Cathy was the lead futurist at You Are Here Labs, where she led agencies, brands and companies in applying Augmented Reality and Virtual Reality for marketing and training working with brands like AT&T & Porsche. Hackl worked as a VR Evangelist for HTC VIVE during the launch of their enterprise VR headset and during the company’s partnership with Warner Brothers’ blockbuster, Ready Player One.

She’s the co-author of Marketing New Realities, the first VR AR marketing book ever written. She also worked as Chief Communications Officer for cinematic VR studio Future Lighthouse, where she collaborated on projects with Sony Pictures Entertainment, Oculus, Beefeater, and William Morris Endeavor. Hackl has been featured in media outlets like Forbes, Barron’s, Salon, VentureBeat, Digiday, Tech Target, CMO.com, and Mashable. She is a global advisor for VR AR Association and was recognized in 2016 by NBC News as one of the top Latina women working in VR. 

Before working in spatial computing and technology, she worked as a communicator at media companies such as CNN, Discovery, and ABC News and was nominated in 2007 for an EMMY Award for her storytelling work. She’s also the creator of the world’s first holographic press release and loves all things spatial computing, artificial intelligence and futurism.

Cathy is currently working on her second book The Augmented Workforce: How AI, AR, and 5G Will Impact Every Dollar You Make.  She’s co-authoring the book with John Buzzell.

She tweets as @CathyHackl.

This episode streamed live on Thursday, November 12, 2020. Here’s an archive of the show on YouTube:

About the show:

The Tech Humanist Show is a multi-media-format program exploring how data and technology shape the human experience. Hosted by Kate O’Neill.

Subscribe to The Tech Humanist Show hosted by Kate O’Neill channel on YouTube for updates.

Transcript

02:02
hello
02:02
humans hello come on come on in
02:07
start gathering around uh i am uh
02:10
of course your tech your your tuck your
02:12
minister it’s a techie minute show i
02:14
am kate o’neill your host uh i want to
02:17
hear from you those who
02:18
anyone who’s already online say hi tell
02:20
me where you are uh
02:22
i hope you’re doing well and and
02:24
enjoying the uh
02:25
the start of this the sort of slide into
02:28
the holiday season it’s not really
02:29
happening yet it’s just sort of a
02:30
gradual slide
02:32
uh today we’re going to be talking a lot
02:34
about augmented reality
02:36
and virtual reality and spatial
02:38
computing so i hope you’ll
02:39
warm up your questions that you might
02:41
have around that
02:43
with our wonderful guest who i’ll
02:44
introduce in just a moment
02:46
so start in fact you can start asking
02:49
those questions just
02:50
get them queued up in the in the
02:51
questions in the comments there
02:53
and that will help us be able to take as
02:54
many of them as possible in the time
02:56
that we have
02:56
so just go ahead and keep checking in
02:58
saying hello and ask your questions
03:01
so that a little bit of administrivia
03:04
this as you may know is a multimedia
03:06
format program which means that as i’m
03:07
speaking it’s being broadcast live
03:09
across a bunch of channels
03:11
but it’ll also live on as an archive on
03:13
those channels
03:14
and then it’ll live on as an audio
03:17
podcast
03:18
a week and a day later so this episode
03:20
will be available as an audio podcast
03:22
next friday
03:23
and tomorrow last thursday’s episode
03:26
will be available as an audio podcast so
03:29
and then that’s it for the year this is
03:30
the last live stream
03:32
of 2020. we’re going to go on a holiday
03:35
hiatus for a while
03:36
recharge rejuvenate get some juices
03:39
flowing
03:40
and and see what we’re going to do for
03:41
2021 to make this an even better program
03:44
and bring you even
03:45
more exciting content for across a wider
03:48
range of
03:49
tech humanist topics so uh
03:52
anyway i hope that you’ll subscribe and
03:55
follow and
03:56
also ask your questions now do note that
04:00
with those questions and comments that
04:01
you post here in
04:03
the the chat and the comments that we
04:05
may not get to all of them
04:07
but we will try to take as many as we
04:08
possibly can so
04:10
now to introduce our guest today we are
04:14
chatting with the lovely and brilliant
04:16
and talented kathy hackl
04:18
a futurist speaker and author and a
04:20
globally recognized
04:22
augmented reality virtual reality and
04:24
spatial computing thought leader
04:26
she’s been named one of the top 10 tech
04:28
voices on linkedin
04:30
for two years in a row the highest honor
04:32
on the platform
04:34
she currently works as part of the
04:35
enterprise team at one of the industry’s
04:37
top oems
04:38
prior to that kathy was the lead
04:40
futurist at you are here
04:42
labs where she led agencies brands and
04:44
companies in applying
04:45
augmented reality and virtual reality
04:47
for marketing and training working
04:49
marketing and training working with
04:50
brands like at t
04:52
and porsche hackle
04:55
kathy who worked as a vr evangelist for
04:58
htc
04:59
vive or vive of das how that’s
05:01
pronounced i always see it i never hear
05:03
it said
05:03
during the launch of their enterprise vr
05:05
headset and during the company’s
05:06
partnership with warner brothers
05:08
blockbuster
05:09
ready player one she’s the co-author of
05:12
marketing new realities the first vr ar
05:14
marketing book ever written she also
05:17
worked as chief communications officer
05:19
for cinematic vr studio future
05:21
lighthouse
05:21
where she collaborated on projects with
05:23
sony pictures entertainment
05:25
oculus beefeater and william morris
05:27
endeavor
05:28
hackle has been featured in media
05:30
outlets like forbes barons salon
05:32
venturebeat digiday tech target cmo.com
05:35
and mashable
05:37
got to get the whole list going on there
05:39
she’s a global advisor for vrar
05:41
association recognized in 2016 by nbc
05:45
news as one of the top latino women
05:47
working in vr kathy is currently working
05:50
on her second book
05:51
the augmented workforce how ai ar
05:54
and 5g will impact every dollar you make
05:57
she’s co-authoring the book with john
05:58
bizzell
05:59
before working in spatial computing and
06:01
technology she worked as a communicator
06:03
at media companies such as cnn discovery
06:05
and abc news and was nominated in 2007
06:08
for an emmy award for her storytelling
06:09
work
06:10
she’s also the creator of the world’s
06:11
first holographic press release
06:14
and loves all things spatial computing
06:16
artificial intelligence
06:17
and futurism so please keep getting
06:20
those questions ready for our
06:21
outstanding guest
06:22
and with that please welcome my friend
06:26
kathy hackl welcome to the show thank
06:28
you so much for being here
06:30
i’m so pumped to be here i’m so excited
06:32
oh my gosh it’s been it feels like it’s
06:34
been a lifetime
06:36
since you were in new york it was like
06:38
maybe a year ago
06:39
i guess and we saw uh the augmented
06:42
reality art show
06:44
which was amazing you know september of
06:47
last year it’s been
06:48
more than a year so yeah it seems like a
06:51
decade ago right
06:52
yeah it feels like a lifetime like a
06:55
real whole lot of stuff has happened i
06:57
talked to somebody this morning
06:58
on a zoom call and we were like we ran
07:01
into each other about that time on the
07:02
street
07:03
in new york which does happen
07:04
incidentally because people people often
07:06
are like
07:06
boy it must be an anonymous city to live
07:08
in like no actually
07:10
you do see people you know um and and
07:13
it’s just been like we were trying to
07:14
cover all the wide range of things that
07:16
have happened
07:17
in in between and you just can’t just
07:19
can’t yeah
07:20
but but so now crazy yeah yeah and so
07:24
so what’s interesting is that in this
07:26
year amidst all the
07:27
the tragedy and and sadness of it also
07:30
what’s been interesting though
07:31
has been the shift to augmented and
07:34
virtual
07:35
workspaces and workforces in fact so
07:38
that really leads right into
07:40
the themes that you’re working with
07:42
right
07:43
completely i mean it’s it does feel like
07:46
you know it’s been
07:47
you know we’ve accelerated 10 years and
07:50
in a year
07:51
something like that a lot of things that
07:52
i thought i’d see further down the line
07:54
with vr adoption
07:56
uh with ar you know you’re starting to
07:57
see them a lot sooner so that’s that’s
07:59
quite exciting you know
08:01
um having worked in this industry for
08:03
the past five years
08:04
and always thinking this is the year of
08:06
vr this is the year of vr right
08:08
uh i’m not saying that 2020 is
08:10
necessarily the year of vr but i think
08:12
we’re getting closer
08:13
so that’s that’s uh you know an exciting
08:16
time for sure
08:17
and yeah definitely a lot of a lot of
08:19
growth and also a lot of changes
08:21
in the vr air space but yeah it’s just
08:24
an exciting time to be part of the
08:26
industry i don’t know how to explain it
08:27
it’s
08:28
yeah it’s truly exciting i mean i think
08:30
every year is exciting but this year
08:31
it’s
08:32
despite the the pandemic and everything
08:34
it’s exciting to be part of the industry
08:35
right yeah i think that’s it it’s like
08:37
you know you need the caveat because
08:39
nobody wants
08:40
to have this pandemic happening but
08:42
certainly
08:43
it it has provided the backdrop or it
08:45
has provided the incentive i should say
08:47
for the transition that we were all sort
08:50
of anticipating happening more gradually
08:52
which is i think what we’re what we’re
08:53
both sort of saying here so what have
08:55
you seen happening
08:56
at scale in the last year that you only
08:59
saw happening like in
09:00
in dribs and drabs before that yeah i
09:03
mean i think you’ve got
09:05
further adoption on the enterprise side
09:07
so you see more and more companies like
09:08
dhl
09:10
like shell like volkswagen
09:13
having meetings in virtual reality so
09:15
what they’ve done is
09:16
they’ve sent their executives or team
09:18
members a virtual reality headset
09:20
and they put on the headset and they go
09:21
into these virtual meeting rooms
09:23
uh virtual reality meeting rooms and
09:25
kind of have collaborative meetings and
09:26
experiences
09:27
and you do have a sense of presence when
09:30
you’re doing that so
09:31
that further acceleration i think has
09:33
been really exciting
09:34
um and then from a from a consumer
09:36
standpoint or like a bigger mass market
09:38
let’s say
09:39
i see what’s been happening with
09:42
concerts with virtualized concerts
09:44
everything from you know a concert in
09:47
roblox
09:48
that’s happening soon to concerts in
09:50
virtual reality to even burning man
09:52
burning man had a whole virtual reality
09:54
um you know it was verna burning man in
09:56
virtual reality with
09:58
i don’t know i think the total they had
09:59
about i can’t remember the exact number
10:02
but it was like a hundred thousand
10:04
something like i don’t know what the
10:05
number is to be honest like i don’t want
10:06
to say the number but it’s like 90 000
10:08
people together at the same time
10:10
um in vr i don’t think it’s 90 000 quite
10:12
quite there but
10:13
um but it was a large number and just
10:16
having all those people together in this
10:18
burning man camp in virtual reality
10:20
you know it’s a small number but it just
10:23
shows that we’re getting there
10:24
right we’re slowly getting there too to
10:26
that to that massive option
10:28
yeah well i mean it’s it’s just that it
10:30
seems like it’s across a bunch of
10:31
different
10:32
use cases that’s so interesting so you
10:34
have you know burning hand on i’m sorry
10:35
burning man
10:36
i’m bringing it burning man on one hand
10:39
and michelle and the other enterprise
10:40
examples that you mentioned on the other
10:42
where you know you’re trying to address
10:44
different needs different kinds of
10:47
problems to solve and and that’s what i
10:49
think
10:49
for me what’s been interesting about
10:51
watching this year is that
10:52
you have so many different kinds of
10:56
entertainment that needed to be you know
10:58
replaced in a sense
11:00
and uh in person meetings and
11:02
conferences and
11:03
uh so many kinds of things so you are
11:06
actually seeing
11:07
um something that looks like an
11:09
approximation
11:10
of like when when you see people
11:13
gathering in virtual reality
11:15
for things like conferences uh or
11:17
something
11:18
like burning man are you seeing the
11:20
experience that
11:22
feels like yeah this is something like
11:24
it’s obviously not being at burning man
11:27
it’s obviously not
11:28
being at the conference in person but
11:31
does it feel like something i mean i i
11:33
just wonder what your take on that is
11:35
it does i mean it feels i have that
11:37
sense of presence that i don’t
11:38
necessarily get from soon call
11:39
necessarily right
11:41
so like i i spent obviously a lot of
11:42
time in social virtual reality with my
11:44
friends and
11:46
i love it like i i was just thinking the
11:48
other day i was like oh i haven’t seen
11:49
this other friend in vr
11:50
for a while i wonder what’s up but it’s
11:53
been a good
11:53
substitute of sorts to not being able to
11:56
travel to conferences and not being able
11:57
to
11:58
have that interaction um i’ll give you
12:00
an example like with the wall street
12:01
journal
12:03
they had the wsj tech live which is
12:06
their
12:06
big tech conference and they had certain
12:08
parts of it were in vr
12:10
and that was a lot of fun i mean i had i
12:12
was in in spatial which is one of the
12:14
platforms
12:15
hanging out with joanna stern and with
12:18
jason
12:19
and like in this kind of experience
12:20
where i actually had to i got to spend
12:22
some one-on-one time with them and
12:24
you know i don’t think i don’t think i
12:26
don’t know if i would have gotten that
12:27
if i was in you know
12:28
in a zoom call and i don’t know if i
12:30
would have gotten that in person either
12:32
because yeah i don’t know a lot of
12:34
people probably wanted to hang out with
12:36
them but
12:36
you know it’s it’s been a really
12:39
interesting time i have to say
12:40
a very interesting time and that sense
12:42
of presence is palpable
12:44
i mean i’ve done everything from
12:47
virtual reality escape rooms to
12:50
virtuality concerts
12:52
to all sorts of activities at this point
12:54
and i just i have such a great time
12:56
i wish more people could experience it
12:57
because i think it’s when you talk about
13:00
it
13:00
it’s really nice to talk about it but
13:01
people don’t really get it
13:03
once you put on the headset and you’re
13:04
in this virtualized space
13:06
you you know those are memories i have
13:08
memories of vr experiences because my
13:10
eyes
13:11
you know believe what they see i’m in
13:13
this experience i’m in an avatar which
13:15
is fine
13:16
but i’m having a social experience with
13:17
my friends i for example oculus had um
13:20
venues and they had a concert with steve
13:22
aoki
13:23
and i mean i met with four four or five
13:25
of my good friends in there
13:27
we had a blast we had a blast we danced
13:30
our you know
13:31
we danced the the the look you know the
13:33
answer to she’s off
13:34
it was great so so yeah i mean i feel
13:38
like i went to a concert with them even
13:39
though
13:40
it was a virtual reality concert so so
13:43
i’m excited about that
13:44
that’s amazing because i and you know
13:45
all the virtual reality experiences i’ve
13:48
had have been
13:48
exciting but with that sort of
13:52
this sort of mental caveat of like yeah
13:54
but it’s also it’s not
13:56
it’s not there and it’s not it’s not
13:58
real and it’s not doesn’t feel real
14:00
so so you’re having probably far more
14:02
advanced
14:03
uh versions of those experiences which
14:05
is which is exciting to know that that’s
14:07
what lie
14:07
what maybe lies ahead yeah i mean if
14:10
you’re in this
14:10
for example i did one called uh dr
14:12
crumbs disobedient pets which is
14:15
pretty much an escape room right so i’m
14:17
in there i’m
14:18
in an avatar of a hamster my friend’s an
14:20
avatar of a cat
14:21
and we gotta solve all these puzzles and
14:23
there’s a whole story but like we gotta
14:24
do it like
14:25
we have to move this this year and this
14:27
year to be able to open the door and
14:28
like we had such a good time i don’t
14:31
know how to explain it like we really
14:32
had a blast
14:33
um and it’s you know yeah if we would
14:35
have been in a physical escape room we
14:37
would have had to do some of those
14:38
things as well
14:39
so so yeah i mean it’s to me it’s just
14:41
been a lot of fun
14:42
exciting the possibilities are there um
14:45
i think something else that i’m noticing
14:47
that i think is extremely interesting
14:49
too
14:49
and and it’s not so much vr because i
14:51
don’t want to just focus on vr
14:52
right vr er you know and nxr which is
14:55
extended realities and umbrella terms
14:57
it’s also
14:58
kind of what’s happening in our phones
15:00
you know we’re going to
15:01
brick and mortar but we’re going to
15:03
brick and mortar less obviously because
15:05
of the pandemic and
15:06
just trends in general so you start to
15:08
see this need for that virtual try-on
15:10
for using augmented reality
15:12
to buy your makeup or to buy clothes
15:15
what have you
15:16
and it’s also transitioning not only
15:18
from the virtual try on
15:19
but it’s transitioning into what i’m
15:21
calling the direct to avatar economy
15:24
so we’re selling direct to avatars and
15:27
you start to see this i
15:29
it’s a you know and i’m exploring this a
15:31
lot of my writing everything from
15:32
virtual dresses that you’re buying
15:35
or custom avatars uh you know for the
15:37
venice film festival we had
15:39
a developer create custom avatars for
15:41
several women in vr so we have our
15:42
custom avatar
15:44
um in vr chat things like that you know
15:46
you’re starting to create this
15:47
virtualized
15:48
economy that you know it’s been there
15:50
for a long time with second life but i
15:52
think now it’s like
15:53
when you really try to put terms
15:54
together and understand it’s a direct to
15:56
avatar economy
15:57
so um yeah everything from
16:00
and this is the reason i always talk
16:02
about this now is because
16:04
my son recently my son is eight years
16:06
old he recently did
16:07
his first communion and when we when we
16:10
said hey what do you want for you know
16:11
as a gift what do you want his gift
16:13
right
16:13
he said uh i don’t want money i don’t
16:16
want like
16:16
cash i want a roblox gift card
16:20
that i can turn into robux which is the
16:23
currency that you use inside roblox
16:25
so i can buy so and so whichever gamer’s
16:28
skin
16:29
right so they’re like the skin for their
16:31
avatars
16:33
so and you know when i was growing up
16:34
like my brother was saving up to buy air
16:37
jordans
16:38
right that’s what he wanted he wanted
16:40
air jordans
16:41
my son doesn’t want that he wants to you
16:43
know he wants robux which is a digital
16:45
currency inside a video game
16:47
to buy something new for his avatar so
16:49
both wanting to wear something just in
16:52
different modalities in different
16:54
modalities you start to think this is
16:56
direct to avatar is direct to avatar the
16:58
next direct to consumer
16:59
and that’s the question i pose in in
17:01
some of my writing yeah so i’ve seen
17:03
some of your writing
17:04
talking about things like as you
17:05
mentioned like virtual makeup for
17:07
example
17:08
and and that seems like you know that
17:10
that goes beyond
17:12
the uh the sort of second life or you
17:14
know the virtual meeting space
17:16
sort of thing because we’re all having
17:18
so many of these
17:20
you know zoom calls and everything every
17:22
day that
17:23
the idea that you know i remember this
17:26
scene and i think it was in fifth
17:27
element
17:28
where there’s a this
17:31
tool that sort of slaps up onto the one
17:34
character’s face and it’s just a full
17:36
face of makeup you remember that scene
17:37
yep i just remember seeing that scene
17:41
and going like can i have that please
17:44
like the idea that you could just be
17:47
what’s that yeah
17:48
right before we went live i was like
17:50
okay i got two minutes to go put makeup
17:52
on oh
17:52
and then i was like l’oreal just
17:54
released a digital first makeup line
17:56
i was like man if they could incorporate
17:58
that into my skype like that would just
17:59
be great because i would have to not
18:01
worry about this and i would just be
18:02
like boom
18:03
right um so yeah
18:06
it’s positive yeah and you could you
18:09
could do you know
18:10
a face tattoo if you wanted to you could
18:12
do any kind of thing
18:13
so yeah i mean it’s definitely not uh
18:15
this is this is not
18:16
gals only for any guys watching and
18:19
we’re moving so beyond
18:20
like binary gender anyway so this is
18:22
this is a fun area that that i think is
18:24
gonna
18:25
be fun to explore so direct to avatar
18:27
economy that’s a great
18:29
a great concept for us to take forward
18:31
and you see
18:32
you know you know i’m glad you clarified
18:34
or you know you moved into the
18:36
discussion about
18:36
augmented because for me augmented
18:38
reality is
18:39
like where it’s at like i yeah i often
18:42
tell the story about how
18:44
you know there have only been two
18:46
technologies that i’ve like
18:48
seen for the first time in in my life
18:50
that i got like the tingles on the back
18:51
of my spine and the first one was the
18:53
graphical web
18:54
like i saw that and i just went this is
18:56
going to change everything
18:58
and of course it did and then i saw
19:00
augmented reality that was the only only
19:02
the second technology that i ever saw
19:04
that gave me that feeling in the sense
19:05
of like this is going to change
19:06
everything
19:07
and i don’t think it has yet i think
19:10
we’re
19:11
we’re still yet to see it play out you
19:14
know
19:14
how fully it could change everything but
19:17
do you feel that way about it too
19:19
in a sense yeah it but it’s this is how
19:22
i view it because obviously
19:24
having working in the industry i see it
19:25
a little bit different i see this
19:27
like the merging of the digital and the
19:29
physical coming together and this
19:31
creation
19:31
or enabling of the metaverse or the ar
19:34
cloud
19:35
or the spatial internet or whatever term
19:37
there’s many terms to describe this
19:39
this convergence right where the world’s
19:41
painted in data where the world becomes
19:42
machine readable clickable likable
19:45
and what happens is this is kind of how
19:47
i how i explain it to people it’s
19:49
once we break away from these screens
19:52
right when we move from this
19:54
into glasses into you know any type of
19:57
glasses
19:58
i call it the ray-ban moment first for
20:00
some reason like i can imagine myself
20:01
wearing these really cool ray-bans
20:03
but i’m going to be seeing content this
20:05
content that i’m usually seeing on my
20:06
phone i’m going to see it in front of me
20:08
so you should you start to think about
20:10
that it’s like how is content going to
20:12
change
20:12
because right now content is flat i’m
20:14
seeing it on a screen even if it’s a 3d
20:16
model it’s still a flat screen
20:18
right but then you’re actually going to
20:19
be putting content in someone’s reality
20:21
in someone’s world so that changes the
20:23
paradigm
20:23
not only for the big fox stores and the
20:26
big corporations but also for the
20:27
mom and pop mom and mom pop shops and
20:30
the restaurants um
20:31
i have a friend who was one of the
20:33
co-founders of
20:35
um of meow wolf which some of you guys
20:37
might know but now wolf is
20:38
very very you know it’s experiential art
20:41
and experiences
20:42
just amazing stuff and he just set up a
20:45
new
20:46
a new company called gosh what is the
20:47
name i can’t remember what the name is
20:49
but basically what he’s doing is
20:50
starting to prepare spatial programming
20:52
and spatial with a t by the way not
20:54
space spatial
20:56
specialized in spatial computing with a
20:57
t um where he’s starting to kind of
21:00
create spatial programming for companies
21:02
because eventually that’s what you were
21:03
going to expect they’re going to you
21:04
know right now they expect to see your
21:06
google review
21:07
expect to see you know um you know
21:11
all these things eventually that’s going
21:12
to be up here and it’s going to be in
21:14
their field of view
21:15
so so yeah i mean this kind of
21:17
transition into the metaverse
21:18
i think is quite exciting and it really
21:21
does change everything
21:22
yeah yeah it really seems like it and
21:24
and for me a lot of what was exciting
21:26
that first time i saw it is because i
21:28
think about
21:29
the it’s like as you’re explaining that
21:32
it’s layers of
21:33
context and meaning and so you know a
21:35
lot of my work has to do with meaning
21:36
and i’m thinking about
21:37
of course wayfinding is sort of a
21:39
classic example of this right as you’re
21:41
navigating through a city and you’re
21:44
potentially being shown your directions
21:46
uh as you move but you could be being
21:48
shown other meaningful things too like
21:50
history and the context of the buildings
21:52
around you and so on
21:53
uh that seems powerful but then
21:56
you know you talk about all the other
21:58
industries like you just
21:59
you know gave some retail examples i
22:01
think about health care i think about so
22:03
many kinds of industries
22:06
that where that seems applicable and
22:09
powerful
22:11
what do you think is going to get there
22:12
first is it retail that you you imagine
22:15
is going to be where we see some of the
22:17
power really unleashed
22:18
uh i think in demonstration
22:22
yeah i mean for a mass market probably
22:24
um i think you know it’s already
22:26
happening on social media right
22:27
with lenses and all these different
22:29
activations i mean snapchat is
22:31
doing a great work as as instagram and
22:34
facebook are
22:35
uh related to ar but you know i think
22:37
you’re already seeing it in the
22:38
in the like the manufacturing side this
22:41
adoption
22:42
um i’m personally you know really
22:45
interested in
22:46
and and i i don’t know if i wasn’t
22:48
really planning to talk about this but
22:49
i’ll talk about this here is
22:51
using these technologies um
22:54
as as what i call the printing press of
22:56
the future
22:57
okay so when you have you know the other
23:00
day i wanted not the other day last year
23:01
i went to the library of congress
23:03
and they have a gutenberg bible there
23:06
you know and i i stood in front of it i
23:08
kind of looked at it and i said wow you
23:10
know what an impact the printing press
23:12
has
23:12
you know had in our society i think
23:14
everyone agrees on that
23:15
and then i started to think but wait
23:18
what is the future
23:19
of memories what is the future of
23:21
stories what is the future of how we
23:22
will retain history
23:24
and i started to think through how vr ar
23:27
volumetric video 3d models are the
23:30
printing press of the future
23:32
right and the reason i arrived at this
23:34
is also related to a project i’m working
23:36
on i was working on a
23:38
virtual reality project and we wanted to
23:40
incorporate a hologram
23:42
and it was going to be the hologram we
23:43
were going to volumetrically scan
23:45
um the former first lady of costa rica
23:48
that was alive when
23:50
when in 1948 the costa rican army was
23:52
abolished so our costa rica does not
23:54
have an army
23:55
it invests its money in education and
23:57
other things right so
23:58
uh this former first lady of costa rica
24:00
was 102 and a half
24:02
we were coordinating and coordinating
24:04
everything together up here to dc to
24:06
avatar dimension to get her
24:07
volumetrically scanned and have a
24:09
hologram of her and she got coronavirus
24:11
and died
24:13
and it was a race against time and i
24:16
feel that
24:17
there is a huge need to volumetrically
24:20
scan
24:20
and capture the stories of historical
24:23
figures
24:24
whether it’s holocaust survivors so we
24:25
can retain those stories and make sure
24:27
that that lives on
24:29
to you know to heritage anything related
24:32
to a native
24:33
uh you know a language that might be
24:34
dying any a dance that might be going
24:37
away
24:38
so i feel this strong and i’m so
24:40
passionate about this about
24:41
using these technologies for historical
24:43
preservation
24:45
um you know and i’m currently working on
24:47
creating a program
24:48
with avatar dimension for that
24:50
specifically and thinking it through the
24:52
concept of we are the these technologies
24:55
are the printing press of the future
24:56
so and i wasn’t really planning on
24:58
talking about that but i just i
25:00
feel the need to share it because
25:01
imagine if you’re walking around
25:03
and and there’s historical figures and
25:06
and you have
25:06
actual stories living stories of of the
25:10
things that happen somewhere
25:11
right i think that that might be you
25:13
know
25:14
i don’t know it just it speaks to me at
25:16
this moment oh sure i’m glad you did
25:17
share it i mean that’s a powerful
25:20
a powerful illustration and something to
25:23
imagine
25:23
for us it also it seems like an
25:26
interesting segue into
25:28
a question i wanted to ask you because
25:29
when i had caitlyn eugele phillips here
25:31
on the show as a guest
25:33
we talked about of course her book the
25:35
future of feeling and she
25:36
interviewed you for that that book and
25:38
we talked about you just a little bit
25:41
and and about your story uh um about how
25:44
vr
25:44
was helpful for you in in terms of
25:48
uh regaining a sense of emotional
25:50
connectedness and i’d love to hear that
25:52
from you you know we
25:53
i think in the context i should set up a
25:55
little better is that you know normally
25:57
i think uh or or sort of conventionally
26:00
when people talk about virtual reality
26:02
there’s this discussion about empathy
26:04
about how it it’s a
26:05
you know this sort of chris milk empathy
26:07
machine discourse comes up and
26:10
there’s there’s a lot of discussion
26:12
about that caitlyn took that
26:13
apart a little bit and examined it in
26:15
her book but one of the subjects that
26:18
she talked about was about your your
26:20
experience with it could you relay some
26:22
of that
26:23
for us uh first hand yeah yeah because
26:25
it is part of my narrative and part of
26:27
the story on how i arrived at vr
26:29
um so if this goes all the way back to
26:31
2004 i was
26:33
working for cnn um part of my job was to
26:35
look at all the raw footage
26:37
that was coming in from the war in iraq
26:39
back then so i mean it was my job to sit
26:41
through
26:42
gruesome things like beheadings and and
26:44
things that people don’t really want to
26:46
sit through right
26:46
and i don’t want to put those images in
26:48
people’s heads so i won’t go i won’t go
26:49
into detail but
26:50
that was part of my job i had to sit
26:52
through those to alert
26:54
affiliates if there was sensitive
26:55
material in in part x right
26:57
um so i always say and i jokingly say i
27:00
was a facebook moderator
27:02
before there were facebook moderators uh
27:05
because that was my job i had to sit
27:07
through this and when you have that type
27:08
of role
27:09
you you have to in some way turn your
27:12
humanity switch off
27:13
just a little bit or maybe not turn it
27:15
off but dial it down um
27:16
in some ways just to just to try to try
27:19
to get by and leave that
27:20
part compared to you know that part come
27:22
from i can’t say that word
27:24
compartmentalized uh over here right
27:27
so so it wasn’t you know fast forward
27:31
uh to about five years ago i went to a
27:34
conference i was speaking at that
27:36
conference about live video which is
27:37
what i used to do
27:39
and um i was invited to put on a vr
27:41
headset it was the first time
27:43
and i went into an experience called
27:44
confinement that was created by the
27:46
guardian
27:47
and it’s an experience that puts you in
27:48
a very small solitary confinement cell
27:51
where prisoners spend 90 percent of
27:53
their time
27:54
and within a couple minutes of being in
27:57
that cell i mean i took the headset off
27:58
i was
27:59
claustrophobic and there was something
28:01
in me and the only way i can explain it
28:03
is like
28:04
the switch best was turned back on or
28:06
the dial was turned
28:07
and i felt i felt you know i eventually
28:10
felt
28:11
empathy or i prefer the term compassion
28:13
to be honest for these
28:15
people in in solitary confinement and um
28:19
and yeah it just changed me after that i
28:20
said this is what i want to do for the
28:22
rest of my life and
28:23
and you know how to how do i how the
28:25
heck do i get into this industry
28:27
and it’s been a journey it’s been you
28:28
know five years has been quite a journey
28:30
since and
28:31
and yeah it just um and to that point
28:34
about empathy i mean i think empathy is
28:35
a beautiful word and we need empathy
28:37
but i i prefer the term use the term
28:40
compassion
28:41
because i feel that compassion empathy
28:43
makes me feel
28:45
feel for someone else makes me feel you
28:47
know bad or whatever it is
28:49
for that person but i think compassion
28:50
really leads to action
28:52
and i think that that’s more important
28:54
if if if this can lead me to donate or
28:56
if this can lead me to truly care
28:59
about something then i think compassion
29:01
might might be the right word to use
29:03
uh i’m you know i i’m fine with empathy
29:05
i just think compassion might be a
29:06
better word to use in this context
29:08
that’s a great argument i i think that’s
29:09
a it’s worth uh considering
29:13
so what about now as you think about the
29:16
uses of
29:17
vr and ar what ways do you see them
29:21
being used currently uh or about to be
29:24
used like do you imagine they’re about
29:25
to be used
29:26
that could help foster more compassion
29:29
amongst other people and help lead to
29:31
greater action
29:33
i think several i recently um did a talk
29:36
for the department of labor
29:37
where we were you know we were
29:39
discussing the 30 years
29:41
of the americans with disabilities act
29:43
and how technology
29:44
some of this technology is going to
29:46
allow people that have some level of
29:47
disability to have access to jobs
29:49
that they were not able to have before
29:51
and i think that that’s a very powerful
29:54
use you know anything related to
29:55
accessibility and allowing
29:57
you know allowing someone that can’t see
29:59
to be able to see
30:00
i mean that’s power that’s that’s that’s
30:03
technology for good and i think that
30:04
that’s what
30:05
makes me excited right so so definitely
30:08
things like that um
30:10
i’m i’m looking right now also and the
30:12
scientific
30:13
scientific american had an article about
30:15
this yesterday about
30:16
using digital twins for medical for
30:19
medical purposes
30:20
so creating these digital twins there’s
30:23
digital copies
30:24
of who we of us with our organs
30:27
and having doctors being able to see
30:29
that and in some way
30:30
technologically trying out uh potential
30:33
treatments to see what could happen
30:36
i think that there’s something there i
30:37
think that that is very powerful
30:39
um ntt ntt research for example has i
30:42
think
30:43
they’re dedicating 250 million dollars
30:45
to this initiative
30:46
which is creating these digital tweens
30:48
of digital copies of us
30:50
um to be able to see what would happen
30:52
if we did this and
30:53
um and i think that that’s powerful um
30:57
once again if you think about it from
30:59
the medical standpoint
31:00
um having having you know residents or
31:03
you know students being able to
31:05
dissect a virtual cadaver uh multiple
31:08
times before they get to the real
31:09
cadaver or practicing a surgery a
31:11
hundred times
31:12
before they get to the surgery i mean i
31:15
i would prefer to know that my
31:16
doctor or my surgeon practiced this a
31:18
million times
31:20
you know in in real life but also
31:22
virtually
31:23
uh before they get to my surgery right
31:26
so
31:26
so i think that that kind of use is
31:28
exciting um
31:30
and and i think i think what you talk
31:32
about when it comes to
31:33
you know tech tech humanists and and
31:36
kind of
31:36
thinking through this technology is
31:39
designed for humans
31:40
right it’s human-centered design at the
31:42
end of the day it’s how is this useful
31:44
to humans
31:44
and i think that that’s powerful because
31:48
we tend to forget that and we tend to
31:50
over index on the technology i mean
31:52
i hear it all the time like technology
31:54
ai
31:55
it’s going to take all the jobs i’m
31:56
going to take all the jobs like no
31:58
you’re missing the point
31:59
it will it will automate jobs and it
32:01
will take some jobs
32:02
but it is going to create new jobs and
32:04
it’s also going to allow us as workers
32:07
to you know to do jobs in a different
32:09
way it’s more i don’t see it as
32:11
something that replaces i see it more as
32:13
something that can complement
32:14
us and i think that that’s a change in
32:16
the narrative that i would love to see
32:18
happen
32:18
yeah that’s a that’s a complimentary
32:22
to uh the way i talk about it too
32:23
although i think it is important that
32:25
we’re very
32:26
eyes wide open about the displacement
32:28
that that really end
32:29
replacement that really could happen and
32:31
and will happen
32:32
and how it affects individual and as
32:34
well as groups of of workers
32:36
um so with that in mind i guess i want
32:38
to ask you you know
32:40
what when it comes to ar vr and spatial
32:43
computing
32:44
with a t what do you feel like we need
32:47
to be
32:48
cautious about what do you feel like
32:50
some of the the areas where we need
32:52
guardrails that we need to be thinking
32:53
about the consequences
32:55
of this development in terms of human
32:57
impact
32:58
a hundred percent i think privacy uh i
33:00
think you had you had a talk with
33:02
david ryan pogba the other day i mean
33:05
privacy ethics
33:06
incredibly important i don’t want us to
33:08
you know in in
33:10
in in you know a decade and a half be
33:12
having the conversations that we’re
33:13
having now
33:14
you know with people watching the social
33:16
dilemma on netflix would be like i had
33:17
no idea i’m like no
33:19
they’ve been doing this like the whole
33:20
time people um
33:22
right i was like how did you not know
33:23
that but anyway um
33:25
i think we need to have those
33:26
conversations now i’m i’m very lucky in
33:28
a way
33:30
to live in washington dc and i say that
33:32
you know
33:34
in a weird way take the good with the
33:36
bed
33:38
but from the fact that i live here i
33:40
actually get to see what’s going on in
33:41
capitol hill
33:43
so from a vr ar perspective and i’m not
33:45
trying to get political from a vra
33:46
perspective there’s
33:47
actually a reality caucus so ar vr mr
33:51
reality caucus on the hill
33:52
um there there was the introduction last
33:55
year of h.r 4103
33:57
which is a bill that seeks to explore
33:59
the use of ar and vr for professional
34:01
development and training of federal
34:02
workers
34:03
it’s going to be reintroduced in the
34:05
next congress so there’s a lot of things
34:07
that i start to see
34:08
here that i think are incredibly
34:09
important and the conversations that we
34:11
need to have about these technologies
34:13
need to happen and they start here they
34:15
should start here at least
34:17
from uh you know from from that
34:19
perspective so i do feel lucky to be
34:21
here and be able to see that
34:22
and be able to kind of be a part of that
34:24
that’s great do you feel like there are
34:26
uh additional regulations that uh that
34:29
need to be discussed
34:30
in terms of specifically of spatial
34:32
computing and ar vr
34:34
i don’t necessarily want to get to down
34:37
in the weeds with that i do think that
34:38
there are frameworks that are getting
34:39
put out right now
34:41
the xrsi framework is is definitely
34:43
worth a read
34:44
um so yeah i think you know it has to be
34:47
managed
34:48
responsibly because it is putting that
34:50
digital into our reality
34:51
i mean that’s a huge impact it seems
34:53
like you mentioned privacy as one of the
34:56
areas we need to be cautious so as long
34:57
as we’re putting regulations in place
34:59
around privacy
35:00
with a mindset of you know that we’re
35:02
talking about also
35:04
you know this physical presence kind of
35:06
of usage these
35:07
these um you know mixed reality kinds of
35:10
usages that that seems like a
35:13
an important point hey i wanted to
35:14
mention that we have a
35:16
a comment from jerry gobbs says how
35:18
about user isolation and negative social
35:20
effects
35:21
do you want to speak to to that concern
35:24
you mean in virtual reality yeah i think
35:27
i think that might be what he’s
35:29
asking about yeah just in terms of the
35:31
the use of
35:32
of these augment presumably more virtual
35:34
reality than augmented reality
35:36
well i mean i think that’s always been a
35:39
problem in some ways with any technology
35:42
right gaming that’s also been a big
35:44
debate in gaming like
35:45
kids spending so much time just playing
35:47
games i
35:48
you know i i’m a fan of my kids playing
35:50
games i do ask them to kind of balance
35:52
it
35:53
right they can play with their social
35:54
life with their friends on roblox but
35:56
still go play a soccer game uh an actual
35:58
physical soccer game so
35:59
so i think it’s a balance i i do think
36:01
that but a lot of the companies
36:04
working in in making vr better are
36:06
looking at it as a social platform
36:08
as a platform where you can come and
36:10
enjoy and have fun with your friends and
36:11
your family
36:12
so i’m excited about that i mean yeah i
36:14
i do worry i don’t want us to
36:17
this is the thing oh people always tend
36:19
to think ready player one
36:20
right so pretty dystopian right where
36:23
the world has gone to hell
36:25
and we can only put a headset on to go
36:26
into the oasis and that’s the only thing
36:28
i’m like
36:29
i’m i’m more protopin i have a homework
36:31
for token approach i’m not utopian
36:32
necessarily
36:33
but i’m not necessarily dystopian and i
36:35
think that yeah i mean i think certain
36:36
people are going to suffer from
36:38
um from isolation but at the other side
36:40
of the coin
36:41
you know one of the one of the um the
36:44
nonprofits that i used to serve on
36:46
their whole intent the whole role and
36:48
purpose of this
36:49
nonprofit was to take virtual reality to
36:52
homebound seniors so
36:54
that senior for 20 minutes put on a
36:56
headset and went to a beach in hawaii
36:59
i mean i took them out of place right so
37:01
it’s it’s it’s two sides to the coin
37:03
sure everything has to be in balance and
37:05
i think we’ve all seen this year you
37:07
know many of us have experienced you
37:09
know sort of quasi-homeboundness and
37:11
what it means to us to be able to
37:13
connect with others in virtual space
37:16
or you know at least in some sort of
37:18
virtual connection
37:20
has been invaluable so yeah there there
37:23
seems like there’s both sides of that
37:24
coin for sure yeah
37:26
yeah and this is i think the other thing
37:28
when i talked to my children
37:30
i had a call i i talked with them the
37:32
other day about roblox
37:34
that’s their preferred video game i said
37:36
it’s a video i’m sorry i was recording
37:38
them and i said
37:38
guys tell me about roblox and instead of
37:42
saying oh it’s a video game the first
37:43
thing
37:43
both of them said is it’s a community
37:45
mom that’s where we go
37:47
to be with our friends and to see our
37:48
friends and that to me
37:51
if you think about it it’s a completely
37:53
different perspective and i’m like okay
37:55
so video games are the social media
37:56
network of the future
37:58
or you know whatever you want to call it
37:59
right um they see it as a community
38:02
that’s where they spend time with their
38:03
friends
38:04
it is it’s a great answer how much do
38:06
you think that they uh were
38:07
strategized that in advance and we’re
38:09
like okay here’s what we gotta tell mom
38:11
no i don’t think they did that i i’ll
38:14
every once in a while just grab them and
38:16
ask him a question the other day my son
38:17
was like you know mom
38:19
there’s flying cars they’re testing
38:20
flying cars right now and i don’t think
38:22
the fire cars are that far off and i’m
38:24
like
38:25
oh my gosh that’s great um i i start a
38:27
lot of my a lot of my talks i started
38:29
with a video of my son
38:30
talking about where he sees technology
38:32
going oh i love that
38:34
yeah he ends up he says a gloves that
38:37
can see through
38:37
walls and like he just goes off wow
38:41
and i’m like well i think he’s asking
38:42
for quite a lot but um
38:45
yeah i think it’s exciting so it’s two
38:47
sides of every coin and i don’t want to
38:48
dismiss the question because i think
38:50
that
38:50
yes there is a problem um i i worry
38:54
also from an air perspective on
38:57
how we view ourselves especially young
39:00
women
39:00
um even in men too i mean yeah i think
39:03
it’s pretty cool but if we
39:04
if we only use filters and if we only
39:07
you know use digital makeup what happens
39:10
when we actually meet someone in real
39:11
life right
39:12
um it’s it’s partly what happens
39:14
nowadays regardless with social media
39:16
but
39:16
once we have those layers and those
39:18
filters
39:19
um i don’t want that to necessarily
39:22
impact my daughter and think that she
39:23
needs to look like
39:24
you know like an anime or or what have
39:26
you to be pretty
39:28
right right what other exciting tech
39:31
are you keeping your eyes on besides
39:32
flying cars and gloves that can see
39:34
through walls
39:37
i’m so i’m very keen right now on bring
39:40
computer interface
39:41
so brake computer interface is pretty
39:44
much um
39:45
you know the way i’m going to explain it
39:47
is if you’ve been following elon musk
39:49
you’ve probably heard of neuralink
39:51
he’s working on bci if it’s more
39:53
internal the ones i’ve been trying are
39:55
all external devices
39:57
so i’m able to put a device on that
39:59
reads my brain waves
40:00
and reads my intent and it knows that i
40:03
want to scroll an ipad so i’m able to
40:04
scroll on ipad or i’ve been able to turn
40:06
on lights
40:07
just using just my thoughts or uh play a
40:09
video game or
40:10
put a code i’ve been able to do all
40:12
these things and i’m very keen on it
40:14
very interested in seeing what’s going
40:16
on i wrote a
40:16
several articles about bci and forbes
40:18
that have been very well received
40:21
and um and yeah i think the biggest
40:23
thing that has stuck with me
40:24
from studying these technologies and
40:26
trying them out from an external
40:28
perspective
40:29
is that my brain actually really likes
40:31
it loves the workout
40:33
like i i’m thinking about it and i’m
40:34
like the you know the
40:36
the receptors here the pressure
40:37
receptors are like lighting up i’m like
40:39
oh my gosh
40:39
um so i’m still sitting with that is
40:41
that a good thing or a bad thing i don’t
40:43
know
40:43
um but i think these technologies can
40:45
allow us to do a lot of things
40:46
especially people with disabilities
40:48
um you know being able to use a hand a
40:50
virtual hand that
40:51
they if they don’t have a hand being
40:52
able to use a virtual hand to do things
40:54
in a virtual space
40:56
um i think that’s powerful so yeah i’m
40:59
looking at that
41:00
um i’m looking also like i said
41:02
exploring the direct to avatar economy
41:04
and everything that’s happening in the
41:05
metaverse that’s obviously a bigger
41:06
conversation
41:08
and um i’m thinking through space
41:11
through space marketing
41:12
like in space with a c like actual space
41:15
um
41:15
yeah yeah i mean i’ve been tracking that
41:18
for a while
41:19
and it’s just been interesting to see
41:21
kind of where it’s going
41:23
uh in this in the sense of like you know
41:25
taking marketing into space and kind of
41:27
the
41:28
the you know the considerations we need
41:30
to have there
41:31
um yeah you know so yeah i wrote an
41:34
article about space marketing as well on
41:35
fort and forbes
41:36
i was like are you seriously thinking
41:38
i’m serious i’m serious
41:40
this is happening that’s great yeah that
41:43
there’s definitely some big watch outs
41:44
there it seems like
41:46
like we don’t want billboards in space
41:48
no no there’s a company called space
41:50
billboards
41:51
but a lot of people would definitely
41:53
definitely gotten pushback
41:54
um i was really interested in what
41:56
l’oreal did
41:57
uh estee lauder did recently which was
42:00
send up one of their serums
42:02
up to the international space station
42:04
and have
42:05
the crew uh take pictures of the serum
42:09
in space so it’s the first beauty
42:10
product in space
42:11
right it was i think less than two
42:13
hundred thousand dollars for the whole
42:14
thing but
42:15
it’s interesting because it it would
42:17
open a lot of questions i’m like so now
42:18
the astronauts are content creators
42:20
and creative directors because they’re
42:22
the ones that have to do these shoots
42:24
right
42:25
wow so i’m like wait a second
42:28
and then even the price um was it in
42:31
that i can’t remember the exact year
42:33
but pizza hut sent up a pizza to the iss
42:35
to a cosmonaut
42:36
i think it was in the 90s and they paid
42:38
a million dollars for that you know
42:40
it’s like a little pizza you know a
42:42
space pizza
42:43
they paid a million dollars for that
42:44
pizza i mean estee lauder sends up their
42:46
serum and it’s 200 000
42:48
i’m like wow the price of space market
42:49
is really going down substantially
42:51
right i don’t know
42:54
just things that i’m exploring and
42:56
thinking through i think we’re going to
42:58
see
42:58
space marketing activations during the
43:00
world cup in 2022
43:02
um yeah it could be interesting yeah you
43:04
noticed it wasn’t domino’s pizza though
43:06
because they couldn’t deliver it in half
43:07
an hour or less
43:10
there’s no no way
43:13
well hey i want to uh give you a chance
43:15
so two things
43:16
i want to make sure since this is our
43:18
last live show of 2020 i want to go out
43:20
with an
43:21
optimistic view so i want to give you a
43:23
chance at the very end
43:24
to say what you’re hopeful about you
43:26
know in terms of
43:28
technology the solving human problems at
43:30
scale but i also want to give you a
43:32
chance before we get to that
43:33
to make sure that people know how to
43:34
find and follow you and your work
43:36
online thank you i mean linkedin is
43:39
really where i share a lot of great
43:41
content and my opinions
43:42
and um and videos yeah it’s it’s
43:46
it’s really i think the best place for
43:48
connect with me um
43:49
forbes is a great place to read my
43:51
articles as well but definitely linkedin
43:53
you can also go to my website
43:54
kathyhackl.com and
43:56
yeah just you know feel free to connect
43:58
with me on linkedin it’s it’s always fun
43:59
to have those conversations
44:01
yeah and you’re sharing such interesting
44:03
stuff all the time in all those places
44:05
so so yeah with that in mind you know
44:08
you’ve got your eye on everything you’ve
44:09
talked
44:09
already a lot about some things that you
44:11
see coming you know sort of
44:13
down the road um but when you think
44:15
about
44:16
you know what really could help solve
44:18
human problems at scale
44:20
you’re thinking about climate change
44:22
thinking about you know
44:23
refugee crises and and climate based
44:26
refugee crises that are going to amp up
44:28
uh and and so many other problems not to
44:30
mention
44:31
uh the actual problems caused by
44:34
emerging technologies and
44:36
the shifts and work geopolitical
44:38
upheavals
44:39
you know you name it there there are a
44:41
lot of of problems oh and of course
44:43
let’s not forget kovid and and
44:44
and any other pandemics that might want
44:46
to join the party
44:48
so uh what do you think of when you
44:51
think about
44:51
what really feels hopeful uh
44:55
in terms of either how tech can help
44:57
solve these problems or just in general
44:58
what you’re what you’re seeing that
45:00
gives you hope
45:00
for the future so i am very hopeful
45:04
about the future and i’m more pro-topian
45:06
like i said in for token it really means
45:08
that it’s neither utopian or dystopian
45:09
the real the truth is going to be
45:11
somewhere in the middle
45:12
technology is going to help us make us
45:13
better um it’s a progression towards
45:16
better
45:16
um but you know there are going to be
45:18
downsides and there are going to be
45:19
negatives
45:20
so i think that having kind of that
45:21
protopin view helps
45:23
um i also think i come to analyze things
45:26
and i come to analyze what the future
45:29
the potential futures could look like
45:31
right uh from it from frameworks and
45:33
from kind of uh
45:34
strategic foresight and being trained in
45:36
that and
45:37
you know i i think we can’t over index
45:39
and just focus on technology even though
45:41
that’s my forte and that’s where i play
45:42
most of the time
45:43
i cannot allow myself to just do that i
45:46
have to think about the so
45:47
society environmental political um you
45:50
know
45:50
all the different elements that play
45:52
into the reality of our world
45:55
right so so once again that’s that’s why
45:57
i think being in dc is
45:58
excuse me an interesting bird’s-eye view
46:00
uh of what’s happening
46:02
um so so yeah it’s i you know i don’t
46:05
have the answer to that because if i did
46:07
i
46:07
you know i’d be i have a noble peace
46:10
prize uh at this point
46:11
if i had the answers to all those
46:13
questions but i do think that when we
46:15
analyze something
46:16
i i call it futures intelligence it’s
46:18
really using
46:20
not only the power of emerging
46:21
technology but also looking at all the
46:23
different
46:24
you know things related to society
46:26
political economical environmental
46:29
you know uh trends and kind of try to
46:31
put those things together and better
46:32
understand
46:33
what are the potential futures right
46:35
then when you when you when you look at
46:36
the futures and you look at the horizons
46:38
and you say okay there’s
46:40
some of these are some of the potential
46:41
features that could occur what is a
46:43
preferable future
46:44
what how do we work towards that future
46:46
right so
46:48
so yeah actually i’m working on a really
46:50
interesting project with
46:51
uh with the armed forces of all of all
46:54
groups
46:56
for creating and bringing one other
46:58
global futures report
46:59
to virtual reality so that instead of
47:02
people reading just
47:03
a um you know a report they’re actually
47:05
able to experience it in vr
47:07
and kind of go through those those
47:08
potential futures and how does that
47:10
change the way you make decisions
47:12
um so so yeah that feels like a very
47:14
full circle moment
47:16
for you with you know having just talked
47:18
us through that
47:19
that 360 that live video sort of
47:21
experience of the
47:23
solitary confinement sort of situation
47:25
and bringing that
47:27
that sort of compassion to the military
47:30
into um conceptualizing what
47:33
impact different actions could have
47:36
that’s powerful
47:38
uh thank you for doing that work you’re
47:40
welcome i’m excited i’m really excited
47:42
about this project
47:43
though well fantastic well i know we
47:45
have to make sure you can get to your uh
47:47
your next meeting so thank you so much
47:49
for joining us today
47:51
thanks for being here thanks to everyone
47:52
for tuning in uh it’s been a wonderful
47:55
run of this series so far i look forward
47:58
to bringing you more in the future and
48:00
kathy thank you so much for being here
48:02
with us
48:03
thank you and kate thank you for doing
48:04
the show and bringing amazing people to
48:06
talk about
48:07
really relevant and important things i
48:09
wish you know i i
48:10
i just i just want to you know thank you
48:13
and
48:14
um and congratulate you for the show so
48:16
thank you so much kathy
48:17
take care everyone

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